chasil 10 hours ago
Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces.

They should augment deployed enforcement with those who have such expertise.

throw0101c 9 hours ago
> Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces.

Why is crowd control even needed?

ICE existed for many, many years before now, and them doing their job never caused crowds previously (under both R and D administrations), so what (rhetorically) changed?

estearum 9 hours ago
Oh this is easy: a gigantic funding increase is being used to massively expand workforce with minimal training, then that workforce is being deployed with an ambiguous mission and apparent arrest quotas, while also being told they’re immune from any criminal liability for their actions (they’re not), including internal memos telling them they’re allowed to enter private homes without judicial warrants (they’re not), and a SCOTUS decision that is being represented to mean that racial profiling is legal now (it's not)

Deploying literal hordes of poorly trained, well-armed men onto American streets with explicit guidance that runs directly contrary to the US Constitution's plain text can, will, and SHOULD attract crowds in opposition.

Hope that helps!

solid_fuel 8 hours ago
There's a big difference between seeing an immigration raid where you know whoever gets picked up is going to have access to a lawyer, be subject to proper due process, and at worst be sent back to their home country. We knew - or at least believed - that if they detained someone who was a citizen, that person would be released.

Now, when we see ICE grabbing someone, we know that person probably won't have access to legal representation even if they are here legally, even if they're a citizen. We know they might be sent to a concentration camp in a foreign country they aren't from, and we know they might even get murdered in the street. It's a very different dynamic.

deeg 7 hours ago
Because ICE has gone way beyond arresting illegals. In Boston, for example, they stopped a naturalization ceremony literally minutes before people were to become citizens. Do you support that?

https://www.wcvb.com/article/21-citizenship-oaths-canceled-f...

etchalon 6 hours ago
Bigotry, mostly. It's usually bigotry.
jaredklewis 4 hours ago
Well they didn’t wear masks and grab people off the street and shoved them into unmarked vans under previous administrations.
toast0 8 hours ago
Didn't ICE and predecessor organizations do workplace raids? Maybe that's not as big of a crowd, but it's still a crowd. I think they would tend to do workplace raids in concert with the FBI.
dylan604 10 hours ago
Who? They are complaining that sanctuary cities' local police are not cooperating. Who else are you suggesting has the necessary expertise?
defrost 9 hours ago
MN police are delivering criminals with no citizenship status to ICE / DHS though.

They have not been supporting ICE on warrentless invasions, fishing expeditions, assaulting local citizens.

dylan604 9 hours ago
Surely, you're not saying that the feds are saying things that are counter to what's actually happening on the ground, are you? /s

At this point, you just have to assume the truth is exactly the opposite of what the feds are saying. How do you know a fed is lying...their mouth is moving.

SR2Z 10 hours ago
Perhaps if they cannot carry out their goals without hurting people, the answer is "take a step back" and not "hurt people."
deepsun 10 hours ago
Well, if local police is not cooperating then it's as designed by the constitution (states have the authority to police), to not give federal government powers to make the country a police state. Feature, not a bug. Federals should discuss and persuade the state and their police.
dylan604 9 hours ago
Nobody said the police are not policing. They have their own jobs and not there to do the bidding of the federal government. You're saying this like the local authorities are meant to drop what they are doing at the drop of dime because the feds have a request. These are not dangerous criminals that require a timely response before causing more harm. These are people trying to live their lives and it will not harm the rest of the citizens by doing immigration enforcement at a slower pace.
pseudalopex 9 hours ago
Did you not notice chasil and deepsun were different accounts?
dylan604 9 hours ago
What does that have to do with my response to the comment I replied?
pseudalopex 8 hours ago
Your reply to deepsun made no sense as reply to deepsun. You said You're saying this like the local authorities are meant to drop what they are doing at the drop of dime because the feds have a request. But deepsun said the opposite almost.
arxari 10 hours ago
That's the what the state police is for... the one that Minnesota refused to deploy to help ICE when the Good and Pretti situations happened.
SR2Z 9 hours ago
The state police are not for enforcing federal law unless the state wants them to. That's a pretty big part of what makes them STATE police, actually.
wat10000 8 hours ago
Why do we expect the state police to help murderers? My only question is why they're not out there protecting the people from the murderers.
etchalon 10 hours ago
The state police are not "for" non-violent enforcement.
arxari 10 hours ago
I mean yeah, they're not "for" it but you can see how deploying the PD would be helpful as they're more inclined to be non-violent and also I'd reckon they have far more experience than ICE considering the mass requirements which results in many many ICE officers being pretty much just militarized citizens with lacking experience put into stressful situations.
redman25 9 hours ago
Why are they more inclined to be non-violent?
etchalon 2 hours ago
Maybe the federal government shouldn't be sending "pretty much just militarized citizens with lacking experience" into "stressful situations."

Kooky idea, I know.

pstuart 10 hours ago
It's a feature, not a bug
cornhole 8 hours ago
i can’t wait until the gestapo, and the powers that be, revoke my citizenship and send me to a ice detention center so i can make license plates
scarecrowbob 8 hours ago
One of the pleasant things, though, is that if that kind of thing is on the table you probably have some kind of moral imperative to start doing something about it.

Previously I felt like a hyperbolic nerd, and now I have a whole lot of new friends all working on the same stuff. Wheee. Go team. I hate it.

morkalork 7 hours ago
>But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes
scarecrowbob 5 hours ago
I appreciate that bit of prose.

Fortunately it feels very much the other direction, lately- more folks seeing the dangers, more willingness to take the long bet. Fewer folks at brunch.

That's a bet some of have been taking for a while, though it's oftent felt dumb, and we haven't needed a great shocking occasion to do it.

gafferongames 10 hours ago
Fascism has come to the United States.
pstuart 10 hours ago
It's been here for a long time, it finally has encouragement to show its face.
SilverElfin 10 hours ago
It’s hilarious seeing the kind of narratives the right is coming up with to avoid admitting the obvious truth which is on video from multiple angles. I’m now seeing people say things like “you can’t carry a gun at protests” (even though there are numerous photos of people openly carrying guns at right wing protests), or “here’s a different video showing Pretty was an agitator” (as if that excuses the execution), or “wait for bodycam footage” (even though there is a video of them removing his gun and later putting him on his knees).

I will say though that I am also a bit scared. When government officials push a blatantly false narrative, that they know is a lie, and their supporting voters completely accept that version of reality over what they can see with their eyes, it suggests that those same voters would be okay with ANYTHING the administration does.

jaybrendansmith 9 hours ago
Yes, this. After watching all the video angles, to have seemingly intelligent people come to some crazy conclusion means they are hopelessly mindfucked. It's really hard to understand how these groupthink spells work, but clearly they do. I think my perspective is so focused on facts that my mind is having trouble bending to the fact that MANY people do not critically think from first principles, about nearly everything. It's troubling to me, making me feel somewhat alienated to at least 40% of the human race.
Jordan-117 10 hours ago
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
scarecrowbob 8 hours ago
"Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"

It's been this way for a while, though. It's just that the stakes of the things they are willing to tell folks to "2+2=5" about seem to have dropped substantially. It used to be about the goodness of US foreign interventions and, say, "imperial capitalism" in general, and they made plenty of fun propaganda to support it: "Red Dawn" or "First Blood"- quality and fun propaganda.

When they started kidnapping folks from our communities who've been peacefully chilling and being community members for decades, it got a lot less abstract, I think.

If it helps, understand that it becomes ever easier to get folks to disbelieve the government when they can see it; it's far harder to get the average brunch-enjoyer to care when they are doing a central american coup... much easier to care when they are shooting yt wmn in the streets.

Famously, there are plenty of stories in the west about eastern-bloc countries and propaganda, where everyone knows that that the papers don't tell the truth but the truth circulates regardless.

So maybe don't worry about the false narratives- worry about the recouperative powers of capital to pull all those radicalized liberals back into the fold instead of using a mass line of organization to force structural changes.

trhway 10 hours ago
fish rots from the head. Violence, lies and grift. The very head is convicted grifter who is openly using his position for personal enrichment. Right next - Noem - trigger happy dog shooter, and why suddenly so many DHS ads with her ? :

https://www.propublica.org/article/kristi-noem-dhs-ad-campai...

"Firm Tied to Kristi Noem Secretly Got Money From $220 Million DHS Ad Contracts The company is run by the husband of Noem’s chief DHS spokesperson and has personal and business ties to Noem and her aides. DHS invoked the “emergency” at the border to skirt competitive bidding rules for the taxpayer-funded campaign."

and that cherry on top:

"DHS, White House shared white nationalist song in ICE recruitment posts"

https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/white-national...

cucumber3732842 10 hours ago
This was not a particularly good condition fish to begin with....
tstrimple 4 hours ago
Naw. The rot has been here since the country was founded. It has never been adequately treated. We had our best opportunity after the civil war, but decided to throw away the antibiotics and just live with it. It took a long time, but now seems terminal.
metalcrow 10 hours ago
> officials rushed to defend immigration officers without waiting for key facts to emerge – in what former immigration officials called a clear break with past practice for federal agencies

Without obscuring how bad is it, I don't believe there was ever a time when officials _didn't_ rush to defend federal officers without waiting for key facts to emerge. The us government has constantly loved to say that no one working for them has done anything wrong.

Sabinus 10 hours ago
Calling American citizens domestic terrorists 30 mins after they were shot dead by agents of the President's shiny new initiative is a bit of an escalation on the generic government face-saving responses. The rhetoric is escalating and dangerous.
guerrilla 10 hours ago
Is it? I really don't think so. You don't remember the whole "superpredator" thing? Every time a black dude is shot, they'll start talking about how he must have been some kinda criminal. People of color have been suffering this shit forever. Sure, the Internet makes things faster, but the policies are the same.
deinonychus 10 hours ago
in that case, it seems like as good of a time to stop as ever
guerrilla 9 hours ago
It's seemed like a good time for quite a while...
arxari 10 hours ago
I think to an extent Trump is a fall guy, even when it comes to Venezuela he was dragged through the mud where his predecessors have constantly undermined the sovereignty of other nations and attacked them under the guise of protecting the US from terrorism when it was about oil and mineral ritches [1], the same with the deportation centers which while they were getting some criticism it was nowhere near the level of slander that there is towards the current admin doing the same thing.

[1] https://youtu.be/C3LFbOSPfrE

istjohn 10 hours ago
Our cities are being occuppied by paramilitary forces who are assaulting residents, routinely telling brazen lies about high-profile incidents, and racially profiling without pretense. This is not normal.
bediger4000 9 hours ago
If Trump got "dragged through the mud" on Venezuela, he did it to himself. What we know about that operation indicates it's clearly a Trump op.

But overall, I also disagree. The press has been very easy on Trump, from going easy on the grab then by the pussy tape, to never saying that he lies, to not making an issue out of his mental decline.

llm_nerd 8 hours ago
Never like this.

The way Noem et al. immediately started with the violent domestic terrorist rhetoric / we've done nothing wrong was absolutely unheralded, and the government was never like this. When there's a shooting you say that the situation on the ground is dynamic, evidence is being amassed, the subjects are on leave pending the investigation, etc.

This was completely unlike the historic norm, and clearly it was the marching orders. They were obviously instructed to ape Trump's habit of utter confidence in the face of devastating reality.

And I mean, it just reflects how Trump operates. Reality is secondary to what you claim it is, and if you lie, and everyone knows you lied, just repeat the lie again and again and it breaks many people's brains until some subset of the population will just go "Wow, no one is so shameless or vile they'd lie like this, so he must be telling the truth!". Similarly, immediately pretend that these situations and slam dunk, quick-close cases with over the top rhetoric (terrorism! ICE agent hospitalized in mortal danger, etc) no further consideration needed, is perfectly coherent with the way Trump has managed to con so, so many.